Note: See also the files: utensils-msg, breadmaking-msg, brd-mk-sour-msg, iron-pot-care-msg, no-fire-cook-msg, p-kitchens-msg, camp-ovens-msg
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| ovens-msg - 9/24/13
Medieval ovens and SCA camp ovens. NOTE: See also the files: utensils-msg, bread-msg, breadmaking-msg, brd-mk-sour-msg, iron-pot-care-msg, no-fire-cook-msg, p-kitchens-msg, camp-ovens-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE -
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: haslock at fiacha.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Brick Oven Design Date: 21 Sep 1994 20:39:46 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
bricks are a really poor conductor of heat, it seems grossly inefficient to use a separate fire box and wait for the heat to percolate through the walls of the fire box. Trying to use the hot air and smoke generated by the fire might be possible but it would not work the same as a brick oven such as I have used. In discussing improvements to the brick oven we have, we have considered redesigning the inside to make better use of the flames, and cause the smoke to go up the chimney instead of out of the door.
practical. I would be interested in pointers to plans for period ovens and indications of when ovens with separate fireboxes came into use.
From: alisounf at aol.com (AlisounF) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Brick Oven Design Date: 21 Sep 1994 17:15:03 -0400
>I would have assumed that there would be two cavities - one to bake in, >and one for the baking. Not so? The design requires quite rudimentary >brick-laying skills. I don't know when the idea of a separate firebox and bake area was invented, but even in the 19th. century in rural Massachusetts bread might still be baked in a beehive oven with only one chamber.
who is known to say that you cannot light a candle in the wind. From: Suze.Hammond at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Brick Oven Design Date: Sat, 24 Sep 1994 21:37:00 -0800 Al> From: alisounf at aol.com (AlisounF) Al> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Al> In article <9409211855.AA00503 at jackalope.toontown>, at mc.lcs.mit.EDU Al> (Neil Perkins(980-9892" >I would have assumed that there would be two cavities - one to bake in, >and one for the baking. Not so? The design requires quite rudimentary >brick-laying skills.
Al> invented, but even in the 19th. century in rural Massachusetts bread Al> might still be baked in a beehive oven with only one chamber.
Vancouver. Among the things they have rebuilt so far is the bakery. It has two ovens, both single-chamber, so far as baking goes. (There -is- a chamber under it, but that's just used to pre-season firewood...)
Just as has been done for practically ever... From: haslock at fiacha.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Request:medieval feast Date: 21 Sep 1994 00:30:05 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Greetings from Fiacha, Stephen Bloch raises some interesting points about trenchers that caused me to stop and think/speculate for a moment. Giving every feaster a trencher is a lot of bread. Doing it every day is one hell of a lot of bread. Bread tins are not a medieval artifact as far as I know (but I could have missed them). Without bread tins, bread comes out of the oven in a slump shape. You can't make rectangular bread because it will change shape in the oven. Thus I would expect round or oval loaves. Really tall loaves aren't going to work very well. The further the middle is from the heat, the longer it is going to take to bake. Efficient use of the oven is going to require vaguely flat bread for trenchers. This means that really efficient use of the oven should have been to bake pita bread on steroids. A thick crust would be much more effective at trapping juices and sauces.
two inches thick. However, they only worked when the oven was relatively cool. Trying it with the oven hot resulted in burnt crusts or uncooked middles. Thin breads can be cooked in the hot oven. The point to remember is that with a brick oven there is no thermostat and you cannot use the oven while you are reheating it. Thus, as the temperature goes down, the cooking time increases. If you need to cook a lot of something, you want to cook it in a hot oven so you can cycle lots of items through before reheating. This means that flat bread for trenchers makes a lot of sense. Fiacha Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) Subject: Re: Looking for oven sources Organization: University of Chicago Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 05:22:34 GMT Tandoori cooking is, I believe, traditionally done in a clay oven, and I believe it is similar to the Tanur used in medieval Arabic cooking. A possibility I have considered but not followed up is to find out where Indian restaurants get their Tanurs from. If you have the space, you then bring your tanur with you, bury it part way (I think), build a fire inside, rake out the coals, put in the bread, ... .
From: caradoc at enet.net (John Groseclose) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Looking for oven sources Date: 29 Sep 1994 21:02:59 GMT
> In amongst the talk of making period ovens, etc. did anyone ever list > sources we can look at if we are interested in making one. I don't think > I can survive another Lilies War without hot, fresh bread! > > Tatiana Dieugarde > Shire of Standing Stones > Kingdom of Calontir In the excavations at Pompeii, they dug up a stove/oven/heating device remarkably similar to the "shepherd's box stove" I've seen at a lot of Boy Scout camps... It's essentially a longish metal box with a stovepipe at one end, two doors (one to put wood in, and one above that for baking. The top surface of the box (behind the top of the "oven" box) is used as a griddle surface. The one excavated at Pompeii also had a partitioned area with a spigot, apparently used for heating liquids.
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! ! ! ! ! Baking "oven" ! ! ! ! ! Coals shoved back here ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ---------------------------------! ! ! ! Wood (or charcoal) here ! ! ! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In the Pompeii artifact, the right side of the "oven" area was partitioned off with a spigot hanging out the side. The entire object had brackets at the corners, apparently for legs for the stove.
was a National Geographic. -- John D. Groseclose Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Ice at Pennsic (How much? I used none.) From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 95 12:22:06 EDT glenn at access1.digex.net (D. Glenn Arthur Jr.) writes: > Right now I'm more interested in period (or at least low-tech, > DIY) ovens I can build at -- or _easily_ transport to -- Pennsic. > This has to have been covered in a _Compleat_Anachronist_ or > something, no? But whether period/perioid or modern, being able > to oven-cook at Pennsic can only add to my culinary repertoire. > D. Glenn Arthur Jr., glenn at access.digex.com
The premier issue of _Recreating History_ magazine contains an article describing construction and use of five different outdoor ovens. (I wrote it.) Contact Polsons at sirius.com for info. If you get it, do tell me what you did- I _love_ that part! Yours in service to the Society- (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F. Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA Una Wicca (That Pict) From: brettwi at ix.netcom.com(Brett Williams) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Bread Ovens When Camping Date: 1 May 1996 17:13:52 GMT parkerd at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Diana Parker) writes: >Elizabeth Estep >>If anyone would like to share any experiences, resources, etc. on >>period style ovens or bread making, please post them here, or e-mail to the address below. I'll try and share anything I learn with any >>other interested parties. > >Oh Yes Please. > >Tabitha
>---------------------------------------------- >Diana Parker parkerd at mcmaster.ca >Security Services CUC - 201 >McMaster University (905) 525-9140 (x24282) The Regia Anglorum web site has an article on building one's own kiln-type oven in its copious pages. The address is: http://www.ftech.net/~regia/ On the other hand, since I somehow surmise from all the reading I've done on going to Pennsic that the Coopers might frown on folk building a permanent oven on their land, why not try burying one of those Romertopf type clay pans (with a lid) with bread in the coals and ashes of a fire? Supposedly one can make bread with a good crust in one of those, though I've never tried it. The King Arthur's Flour Baker's Catalog carries 'em, as does most higher end baked goods/cookery shops.
From: jlee at puc.edu (Thrystan Wickliegh) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Bread Ovens When Camping Date: Thu, 02 May 96 05:37:03 GMT Organization: Pacific Union College At the West Kingdom Collegium a couple of weeks ago there was a demonstration of a bread oven. It was made by taking red clay bricks, about 90 of them if I recall correctly, and forming them into an oven shape using normal mud as a mortar. You first make a base of bricks layed on their long thin edge, unfortunately I don't remember how many were in the base. Then you build up a wall around three sides of the base and dome it over towards the top. the structure will resemble a cylinder cut in half lengthwise and lain on the cut side. An important part of building it was that when you get the walls starting to dome over you need to place two bricks perpindicular to the walls at the front of the oven, i.e. the open side. These bricks can then have weights, extra bricks for instance, placed on them to ballance the wieght of the bricks being domed over. Once you get to the point were a brick turned sideways will cover the opening at the top then place the last layer of bricks perpendicular to the side walls. Note the bricks should be placed so that they have their length going the same direction as the wall and their breadth, i.e. the next larget dimension, going away from the oven chamber. The idea is to get as much thermal mass as possible.
draw a picture of it and mail it to you, though I am not a very good artist. The best way to do it would be to get some bricks and try it at home and then tweak it till it works. To fire the oven remove a brick from the roof at the back of the oven, at the collegium we made a sort of chimney out of a couple of extra bricks. And then place your wood inside and build your fire. If you built the oven so that the door was facing the prevailing direction of wind you will get a nice draw through the oven even without a chimney. Once the fire in the oven is going you will get some good flames coming out of the chimney due to the excess gases burning in the now abundant oxygen. If you build the oven right it should be possible to cook over the chimney while firing the oven. After the oven has fired for about an hour it should be ready to bake in. Though you should probably experiment with it at home. Rake the fire out of the oven and cover the hole in the roof. Then slide the bread in the oven and place the bricks you saved for the door, you did remember to do this right:), in front of the door. The bread should bake in about the same amount of time as in an oven at home, though you should check it about half way through and then again towards the end. I was told that you get a feel for how long it should take to cook. Once it's done pull it out and cut off the bottom layer, since it has lots of ash and mud on it, and eat.
Thrystan Wickliegh P.S. I wonder if anyone knows how "period" it would be to cook on the chimney of such an oven. I would think that it would be great to fire it up in the morning, cook breakfast over the chimney and then when breakfast is done slide the bread in for lunch. From: Gartner Michael Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Bread Ovens When Camping Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 11:26:35 +0200 Organization: Uni Leipzig
> I know that a number of people have done period bread baking at Pennsic > and other camping events. I haven't, but would like to try it some year. > However, I'd also love to pick the minds of those of you who have already > done it, and learn from your mistakes, so that I can make my own new ones. >
> ELIZABETH ESTEP CXYB76A at prodigy.com > ska Angharad ferch Tangwystl apropo, I have never baked bread at war, but I have seen something here in Germany that is very interesting. At this time of the year there are many Market days, most of them being medieval in theme. There is no one organization in charge, rather the majority are hosted by individual cities, especially those with very old Market privelidges. For instance, here in Leipzig they just celebrated their 500 anniversary of Trade fair privledge, granted by Max.I, and had a large Market at the original Marktplatz(Marketplace). There were many handworkers there, including food sellers. One person had brought with him a small stone oven and was baking flat bread and rolls the whole day. Other people would come and use the oven from time to time. I asked him about this and he said that his was the village oven open to public use, a very common practice. In fact since this time I have seen many small villages where the old water mills also have community ovens. I thought it would be interesting to see at an event, a public oven for all to bake their bread fresh daily, Nicht wahr? Duncan Brock, O.L. Michael H. Gartner Universitaet Leipzig, Deutschland From: jlee at puc.edu (Joe Lee) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Bread Ovens When Camping Date: Mon, 06 May 96 16:41:04 GMT Organization: Pacific Union College kimiv at ix.netcom.com(Kimberly A. Ingram) wrote: >I saw one of the conical brick ovens being built in a camp at Pennsic >once but when i suggested a similar enterprize to my household, several >people insisted fire brick must be used as opposed to red clay bricks >or run the risk of exploding bricks and this would be cost prohibitive. >Is this the case? > >Yours, Aralyn Thorgrimsdottir >m.k.a. Kim Ingram-Veillette at kimiv at ix.netcom.com > >Hoping to be savoring some of Tabby's breads this Pennsic! Well the oven I saw was made out of the red clay bricks and it didn't explode. While there may be a worry about the bricks exploding if they got too hot, the oven I saw still had a couple of places in it where there was slightly damp, i.e. still dark, mud between the bricks when we broke it apart the next day. And this was after four firings. I also heard someone, I unfortunately do not remember who, mention that they were at an event similar to a ren faire where there was a large oven built on site. The method used to fire it was that when the soot on the ceiling of the oven turned white it was hot enough, then the fire was cleaned out and the floor was mopped lightly to remove the ashes and hte door was closed. When the outside of the oven became too hot to comfortably touch, sometime later as I understood it, the oven was ready for baking. At any rate the bricks do not ever become hot enough to explode. Thrystan Wickliegh From: Pat McGregor From: priest at vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Bread Ovens When Camping Date: 7 May 1996 11:27:55 GMT Organization: Vassar College Greeting from Thora Sharptooth! Tabitha (parkerd at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA) wrote: > I'm the one who insisted that fire brick be used. Five years >later I'm _still_ picking brick pieces out of my yard from when the >tenants tried to line their firepit with building bricks. Since the >pieces are up to 5-6 feet away from the fire pit site, (and in some cases >buried 2-3") - I'm worried about what kind of explosive force could >develop. (perhaps from wet regular bricks heating to steam? - I don't >know why it would explode - merely that I've got empirical evidence that >they did)
in our Pennsic camp. We considered using fire brick for the entire production but, save for the floor of the oven, went with regular on the recommendation of the brick merchant in town. We used the oven for a week and a half, regularly, and didn't have any problem with exploding or broken bricks--not even on the last day, when we had the thing fired to well over 700 degrees for several hours. ************************************************************************* Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth priest at vassar.edu Frostahlid, Austrrik Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or ************************************************************************* From: priest at vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Bread Ovens When Camping Date: 10 May 1996 11:41:22 GMT Organization: Vassar College
oven
>>in our Pennsic camp. We considered using fire brick for the entire >>production but, save for the floor of the oven, went with regular on the >>recommendation of the brick merchant in town. We used the oven for a week >>and a half, regularly, and didn't have any problem with exploding or broken >>bricks--not even on the last day, when we had the thing fired to well over >>700 degrees for several hours. > >How many bricks? About 50, plus the fire bricks. >How long did it take to build? Most of a day for 2.5 people, counting acquisitions. We kept all the ingredients (except the mud), and it will probably take less than half a day in future.
>Inspection? We closely consulted the fire safety advocate, Durr ish Jabal, and Dave Cooper about several issues such as location, proper acquisition of mud, and keeping the oven up above the ground (to keep the local root system from possible ignition). They were both very cooperative and supportive--but then again we have a history of paying close mind to fire and safety regulations in our encampment. >Are you planning on making one again this year? >Will you rent space? :) No, I'm planning to have our first child on or about August 1. Needless to say, we will not be at Pennsic this year! ;> However, a lady from our shire wants to set up the oven in the shire encampment (Frosted Hills), so we hope the oven will make an appearance this year. *************************************************************************** Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth priest at vassar.edu Frostahlid, Austrrik Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or *************************************************************************** Directory: files files -> Guidelines for Writing Essays Why write an essay ? files -> Personal Essay Samples for Graduate School Application files -> Personal/Reflective Essay files -> Writing personal statements and essays files -> The College Application Essay files -> Iris Rodriguez Prof. Steve Tillis files -> Thematic Essay – Writing Your Essay’s Conclusion files -> Theme Statements vs. Topics files -> Sample Essay Download 188.91 Kb. Share with your friends:
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